Bob Gaines Shares Some of His Secret Wisdom to Help Your Copywriter Career Path Succeed
MKL: Since you’ve been working for yourself, have you always been working from your house, or did you have an office at one time?
BG: No, I’ve always been working right out of my little office here. It’s a combination of office and art studio. I do my paintings here and I write my copy. Yup, I never had an office… an outside office… except when I worked for other people. No, I work here and it’s comfortable.
MKL: So, do you enjoy that?
BG: Oh yeah. My only regret… I spoke to Andrew and we both wish we were twenty years younger… if we were young again and with all the opportunities that are floating around today, we’d probably make a lot of money.
I would go after it whole hog.
I would start throwing ads in the Trades and going back to the seminars and the conferences… standing at the top of the escalator again and shopping for work.
But, you know, I’m not 20 years younger. I am what I am. I hit my 90th next year.
I do one painting a week, every Thursday. So, I want to do 52 a year. And they’ve sold some of my paintings at the gallery. I want to become like Grandma Moses was… I want to become Grandpa Gaines, 20 or 30 years from now [laughter].
MKL: [Chuckling] That’s amazing! Yah, twenty years ago you were 69 and a lot of people were thinking about retirement at that point.
BG: At age 62 I was commuting back and forth from Irvine, California every week. I was going into the airline. I was throwing my bag up into the thing above the seat. I had energy. But as you get older, sometimes the body just takes over. You’re not what you were. That distresses me a little bit, but I fight it.
MKL: Sounds like “Mindset.”
I’ve noticed mindset teaching is coming back in popularity. It kind of went away for a while. People were all about practical tips and useful things you can actually use, but I’m noticing mindset teachings are becoming popular again in the self-help world and even in the copywriting and marketing field.
BG: Many people are offering courses on direct mail copy. There are plenty of books out there. I’m sure you know Bob Bly.
MKL: Yes, I know Bob.
BG: He’s a close friend of mine and he’s written a hundred books. They buy his books and I recommend them. He’s picked up some of my stuff along the way in some of them. People are willing to sign up for these courses hoping to become better copywriters. Good luck to them.
I remember I went to Bernard Baruch for a while. I went there after I did so lousy in high school. I eventually went back to Bernard Baruch School of Business. I went there for two years at night and while I was there, I studied copywriting and I studied commercial art… they had a course in commercial art.
I realized these guys who were teaching copywriting really didn’t know anything. And I had been out there already in the marketplace. They really didn’t know what they were talking about, Yeah, you go into advertising it’s a 15% commission, and blah, blah, blah. They didn’t know how to teach copywriting, and they didn’t know how to teach advertising.
BG: I went there and I saw what was going on. I also took commercial art and studied some commercial art there. That, incidentally, and the drafting I took in high school kind of made me see things as they are.
I represent things… pretty much when I paint them… they’re fairly realistic. I try and get away from that. And interestingly Matthew, my hands shake when I paint and consequently when I paint, I can’t draw straight lines. So, I adapted the Monet style of painting, which was using lots of little dabs of paint to compensate. And the stuff comes out pretty good. I’m happy with that. Yeah, you know, you adapt. It’s what it is.
MKL: Yeah, I’ve seen some of your paintings on Facebook. You are talented. You are a good painter.
BG: Well thank you. I appreciate that. In fact [laughing] I appreciate that more than people saying I’m a good copywriter. When I speak to the guy at the gallery, he also has some of the artifacts and collectibles I’ve picked up over the years… he sells ‘em. The first thing I ask him is, “How many of my painting did you sell?” I’m more interested in selling my paintings than I am the other stuff. If I have any ego… that’s where it is.
MKL: So, let me ask you this. I’ve got a few more questions for you. Are you able to keep going?
BG: Yeah, go ahead.
MKL: Ok. So, when you get a project, how do you get into your target audience’s mind? How do you study or approach your target audience or target market, which of course is going to help you know what to write? Can you share your process with us?
BG: Of course. The first thing I do is question the client quite a bit about what he’s going through, his experiences, and what the market, in general, is out there. He tells me. I then go and research some of the things he’s telling me.
Then I go beyond that. I look for developments that would affect his product… what’s going on out in the world. I often will refer to that and get back to the client and ask, “Do you know that this is going on, and how close are you to that?”
So, always look for that extra edge that might be out there. So, I’ll do a lot of personal research before I put a word on paper. Then I will start to write.
MKL: Ok. So today, I assume that involves Google? How do you do it?
BG: Well actually Google is a very handy thing… even with my simple smart phone I can ask it questions about somebody or something and the thing will come up with an answer instantly.
To get those are answers in the past, I used to literally have to climb… I’d go to the public library and climb up ladders to get to the upper shelves and they used to have a balcony. I’d be roaming through books trying to find answers for things I was about to write.
And here, I can ask my telephone. And the telephone tells me the stuff I need to know. It’s such a time-saver. It’s amazing. But of course, on the computer I just go to Google, I ask similar questions, and I get more detailed answers. It’s a marvelous age for the obtaining of information. It’s wonderful.
MKL: Yeah, absolutely. So you say “Hey Siri”… is that how you do it?
BG: I ask… I have Alexa here. I say, “Alexa, tell me about this, this, and that.” And even while I’m talking to you, occasionally my phone will come alive and listen to what I’m talking about. It can pick it up. And it’ll ask me a question. What’s happening? [laughter] You’re being spied on constantly. It’s amazing.
MKL: I don’t know if you saw this post I did last week… or a couple of weeks ago… but I took my kids to the dentist and talked to the dentist about one of my kids possibly needing braces. I came home. Talked to my wife for fifteen minutes about braces for the kid. The next thing I know, I’m seeing tons of ads in my FaceBook feed for these Invisalign teeth straightening products.
BG: Yeah, the stuff is printed out by the computer. I guess you’re right. It’s amazing…. just by your inquiries on the Internet.
MKL: Yeah, I had not done any searches on Invisalign. It was simply me talking. So, my phone was obviously listening to me.
BG: I have that, too. I have the same thing. It’s all right, I can tolerate it. It’s when I get a lot of scam calls. That really bothers me. It disturbs me they obtain senior lists and they sell to them in the most obscene ways.
I had a call… in fact, I had several of the same call… where I pick up the phone and it says, “Grandpa.” I say, “Yeah.” It says, “I’m in trouble. I was in a car with some of my friends. The police took us in. I need some money to get out.” I was fooled the first time. After that, I said, “Is this Michael?” And he’d say, “Yeah.” And I’d say, “Well my grandson’s name is not Michael. Get your act together, kid.” And I’d hang up.
They pull some scams today. They are heartless. They tell you you owe the IRS money or somebody used your credit card, ran up some debt. It’s terrible. And most of them are operating from India.
MKL: Yeah, right. I’ve had several calls from India myself actually and I’m not a senior. They do that thing telling people we need to help you with your computer.
BG: Yeah, your computer is causing you some problems. If you give us certain information or you put some money on your credit card, we can work out your problems. You can buy a credit card at the department store and send it to us, and we can work out your problems. I mean it’s terrible!
They don’t do anything about that. That’s how it is. So, let me ask you a question Matthew Kaboomis… how’d you get that name?
MKL: Ha ha! Actually, I did not give that name to myself, but it is kind of a copywriting story. I had a managing editor I was working under who started calling me that. He really liked my ad copy, so he would read my ad and say, “Kaboomis!” He would say that in an email and even in front of the whole team. So yeah, when I started working for myself, I decided to make that my brand, so to speak.
BG: It works! Matthew Kaboomis Loomis. That’s really something and it’s hard to forget.
MKL: [Laughing] Yeah, that was the point. That was the purpose. ‘Cuz there’s a lot of Matthew Loomis’ on the Internet, right? So, I just needed to stand out somehow.
BG: Well you do. You do.
MKL: Well thanks. Now that everybody has heard your story, Bob… and I think you’re at an enviable position… I imagine so many people would also love to be doing something that they love for a living their whole life. It just sounds so wonderful.
I want to ask you this Bob, there’s got to be one thing about copywriting you don’t like. If there’s anything… what would it be?
BG: I have to think about that one. Well, it’s hard to answer. I’ve got to tell you you’re going to find this hard to believe. Doing this over 25 years, only three times have I ever had a client ever bounce a piece of copy back to me saying it was not acceptable. One was from a marketing director who just didn’t like it, and I didn’t agree. And another one was somebody who thought it wasn’t right.
But I guess the answer to your question is the few times working with unreasonable clients… and you’ll get them occasionally, but if you want to keep the client, you’ve got to humor them. That would be the only negative aspect of writing copy. The whole copywriting experience has been a good one for me. I like it. As I said, two things in life I could do… I could write well, and I could draw. Copywriting turned into the way I could support my family comfortably.
MKL: Yes. So, let’s boil down your top three skills a copywriter needs to possess. I know you said something like the ability to tell a story… would that be one?
BG: I would say that the ability to tell a story, boldness… you brought that one up, that’s one of them… and I think also the absolute belief in yourself that you have the ability, because I think that’s contagious. I think speaking to a client, they can see that, and they want to hire you. And I believe knowing how to get clients is very important. You have to go out and pursue them. Going out attending seminars, conferences, and making friends and asking those friends to recommend you.
BG: I remember I had one guy recommended me to this person in Las Vegas. I was in Caesar’s Palace. They told me to go upstairs. He was willing to see me, this guy. I went up. There was a guy that looked like Al Pacino… I swear. Then this oriental girl opened the door and she’s in a robe… like the movies! I hear the voice in the back of her say, “Is that Bob Gaines? Tell him to come in.” I went in and this guy looks just like Al Pacino. “Bob, I heard that you did some stuff, good writing,” he said. “I own this town.” He brought me out to the balcony overlooking Vegas. He says, “I handle the printing. Nobody realizes, but I handle the printing for everything in Vegas. I do the menus, I do their little flyers, I do the little things they put on tables. I do everything. I do place mats… I got this. This is all mine.” He says, “I need somebody to do some writing. I also sell a lot of stuff and I heard you’re good.” So, I said, “Oh gee, thanks.” Anyway, I got maybe 6, 7, 8 assignments from this guy. And eventually, he passed on.
I remember I got a call from some members of his family to meet them at the Bellagio in the coffee shop. There were some relatives and I guess some heirs. And they wanted my assurance that I would continue working for them. I think they were fighting over his estate. I said, “Yeah sure. Why not? Yes.” So, they said, “Great.” We shook hand, got up, but I never heard from them again. They couldn’t work out an agreement on who owned all the properties, all the companies, and all of his money. So that ended that.
I remember this guy. He was really unusual. I’ve got such experiences. I’ve met such interesting people. You wouldn’t believe all the people… characters… I’ve met in this business. It’s really an interesting experience I went through.
MKL: Have you thought about writing an autobiography?
BG: Well a couple of people have approached me to write a book.
BG: I did ghost write a book once, but I decided at this point in my life it’s too big an undertaking. No, I don’t think so.
MKL: Well I think you should. I want to encourage you to write an autobiography. I think people in the industry, like me, would love to read it. Even a lot of these stories would appeal to just about anybody, really.
BG: Well that’s nice to hear… that’s flattering. Thank you for that.
My wife says the same thing and other people say that, but I steer away from that. Maybe I’m getting lazy in my old age.
One time, I was also Deputy Mayor of a town. I don’t know if I told you that. It was Randolph Township of New Jersey. The same time I had… as I told you in the beginning… I had a three-times-a-week, fifteen-minute radio program and I wrote a weekly article for one of the New Jersey newspapers. And I was also the Manager of Direct Response Marketing for the General Learning Corporation at the same time. So, I was a very busy guy.
I don’t think I was really lazy. Unfortunately, during that time my wife miscarried, and I felt bad because, I guess, I overlooked her too much and it was a lot for her. I’m sorry I took that much on and didn’t spend more time with her. I did a lot of things back in those years.
MKL: So Bob, what would you say if a small business owner came to you and said, “You know, I’m thinking about hiring a copywriter but I’m not sure if I should?” Why should a small business owner hire a copywriter?
BG: I’d have to pull out the P&L. I’d have to do a profit and loss statement on his basic product assuming he has money for paid advertising, direct mail… be it newspaper or ads, some radio or TV… and to see if the product he has warrants that.
It’s much like when you go on the Shark Tank, you have to always look at the numbers. You have to understand his numbers. But assuming that it did, I could probably recommend a couple of top copywriters for him to look up and ask them to do some work.
BG: I think it’s always good to have a marketing consultant at the very least at his disposal who can advise and tell him what to do.
One of the big parts of success is, we did a lot of press releases in my time. Press releases did very well, and they wound up reaching millions of people. And that was a very low cost.
So, there are all kinds of things you can do. It would depend on what his business is and, yes, I would suggest hiring a marketing guy and making that one-time investment.
BG: I also would be interested in what his business looks like… if it’s a store, whether or not he’s getting visibility. As I said, I have a representative in a gallery in Long Island. I’m never happy with this guy’s visibility. There are trees right in front of his place. You ride by in a car, you blink, and you’ve passed it. He’s got to get a big sign out there and do more… the guy doesn’t listen. He doesn’t realize I was once a highly paid copy and marketing consultant. He just thinks I’m one of his clients. He doesn’t listen.
But yes, if a guy came to me, I’d want to know about his business. I’d want to do some numbers. But I would probably suggest his getting a marketing consultant to help him at the very least.
MKL: Very good. So, I think we may want to wrap this up. I could talk to you all day, but let me ask you, what do you think about the future of copywriting when it comes to artificial intelligence… AI? Do you think that these bots, these artificial intelligence bots that write copy will be able to eventually replace human beings? Do you think that’s possible? What are your thoughts on that?
BG: My thoughts are they will never replace human beings because they have to understand pretty much how human beings think. So, like the assignments we’ve discussed, you have to know so much about the product, the business. It’s easy to say, yeah they could use pat phrases and stuff. I don’t think it will ever be possible. No.
MKL: So, you’re not worried at all?
BG: No, I don’t worry because I’m not in competition with them, thank God. I just don’t think they pose any threat to good copywriters who’ll be out there for the next 5, 10 years. No.
MKL: Gotcha. I tend to agree. It’s interesting because human beings can study how a dog thinks, right? I know humans are much more complex, but who’s to say an AI bot wouldn’t be able to eventually figure out human beings?
BG: And again, I told you good copywriters also see concepts. If a bot was given the assignment to write copy about a product, I don’t know if it would necessarily go off on a tangent and think of concepts relative to that product to make it more potentially saleable. I don’t think it would think about that.
MKL: Yeah, I think it’s a long ways off.
BG: I don’t think it will really happen. I always think you need a human being writing advertising that will generate results.
I think there are certain types of ads that… there are help wanted ads, there are apartments for sale, you know for rent… I guess a bot could pick up that stuff and write it easily. But other kinds of things, no.
MKL: Classified ads, right. Very simple stuff. Bob, is there anything you’d like to promote before we go?
BG: No, I’m not looking to promote anything, or myself, or anything like that. No, not really.
MKL: Are there any social media channels you would like to share to connect with people? Like can someone follow you on twitter of FaceBook?
BG: Well I’m on FaceBook all the time. You’ve probably seen me. I’m on there all the time. I’m always posting my paintings. I started a podcast, but I was told there’s a certain amount of legal jeopardy that you get involved with. You’ve got to be careful what you say. Today you could very easily be sued. And I don’t want to be in a position whereby somebody sues me for something that I said without my thinking properly, having to hire legal counsel, and taking on the tremendous legal expense to fight it. With that thinking, I say why bother?
So, I’m not interested in doing that at this point.
BG: As I said, if I was twenty years younger, I’d be all over the place.
There are so many things. I’m still fascinated by dating clubs. I think there’s tremendous opportunity in dating sites. There are affinities between all kinds of people you can come up with and put together. And there’s big money in that. And there are outside companies that will work with you if they think they can make a buck.
MKL: Yeah, I was curious, if one of those dating sites… back when I was using those sites… was when you were working for them? I know you don’t want to mention them but…
BG: There were some Christian sites. We also were representing an expert, actually, he was a sex expert, but he was a psychologist that worked exclusively with CBS. He was their sex expert who came on occasionally.
If you signed up for a dating site today, you have to pretty much provide a lot of info about yourself prior to being listed. And it can be a long, complex thing that some people don’t like to do. It takes time, etc.
So, this guy, this doctor, he was a Ph.D., he came up with a short questionnaire, which by virtue of maybe 4 or 5 questions pretty much qualified you as the type of person… proper person, perfect person… you should be on-line. So right away there was a lot of interest in it.
BG: But when we first started putting out press releases on it, out of the blue came a couple of other doctors, Ph.D.’s, and universities who questioned this methodology he was introducing. And they said they thought it wouldn’t work. Instead of just overlooking it, his nose got out of joint. He got into a debate with them. So, with that, they ganged up on him and they tore him apart, which killed the viability of the system that he was selling. It could have been worth a lot of money and we could have done an awful lot with it, but he destroyed himself in the process.
But the dating thing has a lot of possibilities. Still, there are a lot of people who share things in common that, if you bring them together or the possibility of their meeting, I think you can get a lot of business.
MKL: Yeah. I know the founder of eHarmony. He started out as like a…
BG: Exactly! eHarmony was one of the most successful sites out there. And he was somebody we were trying to interest in a couple of sites we created. It’s not that difficult to do if you have the right product.
MKL: Yeah, he had a background in psychology, I believe. He wasn’t a businessman or a marketer, really.
BG: He was in with a couple of guys and they made this thing work. We were steered to them.
I’ll tell you, Matthew, you meet all kinds of people in this business as you travel down life’s trail. And sometimes they’re good people and other times they’re not so good people.
You gotta be careful.
You only got so much time in your life to do things. So, you also don’t want to tie yourself up where you’re doing stuff in the long run that may not be profitable or may not feed into what you want out of life.
The feelings and the good things you want to do, I‘ve always used that as my guide.
MKL: Yeah, wow! That is some good wisdom there, Bob.
Speaking to you is something I’ve been wanting to do for a while. And I just want to thank you for meeting up with me, telling your story, and answering some questions here.
BG: My pleasure.
MKL: I suspect that a lot of people are going to enjoy what you had to say.
BG: How many people follow you? How many people do you have on your podcast?
MKL: Well, it depends on the channel. I’ve got over 1000 on YouTube. There are over 2000 on Twitter. There are 1500 on FaceBook. And then I have this email list that’s got over 15,000. And I’m planning to use a little SEO on this, too. I’m hoping this will bring in some organic traffic on my blog. It’s going to be on my website…. on my copywriting and marketing website.
BG: You know, if you want to list my email address, you’re perfectly free to do that… which is Boga3134@aol.com. If anybody needs some advice or guidance, I’d be glad to talk to them.
MKL: That’s very generous of you. Yeah, I can do that. I’m going to see if I can use this audio as well… maybe put this in writing. I may have this transcribed.
BG: Good!
MKL: As far as photos go, could I use a few off your FaceBook profile? Do I have your permission to do that?
BG: Pick out some good ones [chuckling].
MKL: Ok. I’ll include maybe one or two of your paintings, too.
BG: I appreciate that. Tell them my paintings are for sale. If they contact me personally, I’ll sell it to them cheaper than they charge at the gallery.
MKL: Okay, there you go. That’s an irresistible offer!
Anybody listening to this audio, you can contact Bob directly, tell him you heard this interview through Matthew Kaboomis Loomis, and he’ll give you a discount.
BG: You’ll get the “Matthew Kaboomis Loomis Discount”. A good one, too!
MKL: All right, awesome! Hey Bob, thank you again so much for talking with me today.
BG: Thank you. And Matthew, stay well and good luck. And if I ever can do anything for you, don’t hesitate to call.
MKL: The same goes for you too, Bob. Thank you.
End of Part 3
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READ: A Copywriting Career for the Ages: The Bob Gaines Story–Part 1
