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Finding His Own Copywriter Career Path – The Bob Gaines Story Part 3

October 29, 2020 By Matthew Kaboomis Loomis

Bob Gaines Shares Some of His Secret Wisdom to Help Your Copywriter Career Path Succeed

MKL: Since you’ve been working for yourself, have you always been working from your house, or did you have an office at one time?

BG: No, I’ve always been working right out of my little office here. It’s a combination of office and art studio. I do my paintings here and I write my copy. Yup, I never had an office… an outside office… except when I worked for other people. No, I work here and it’s comfortable.

MKL: So, do you enjoy that?

BG: Oh yeah. My only regret… I spoke to Andrew and we both wish we were twenty years younger… if we were young again and with all the opportunities that are floating around today, we’d probably make a lot of money.

I would go after it whole hog.

I would start throwing ads in the Trades and going back to the seminars and the conferences… standing at the top of the escalator again and shopping for work.

But, you know, I’m not 20 years younger. I am what I am. I hit my 90^th next year.

I do one painting a week, every Thursday. So, I want to do 52 a year. And they’ve sold some of my paintings at the gallery. I want to become like Grandma Moses was… I want to become Grandpa Gaines, 20 or 30 years from now [laughter].

MKL: [Chuckling] That’s amazing! Yah, twenty years ago you were 69 and a lot of people were thinking about retirement at that point.

BG: At age 62 I was commuting back and forth from Irvine, California every week. I was going into the airline. I was throwing my bag up into the thing above the seat. I had energy. But as you get older, sometimes the body just takes over. You’re not what you were. That distresses me a little bit, but I fight it.

MKL: Sounds like “Mindset.”

I’ve noticed mindset teaching is coming back in popularity. It kind of went away for a while. People were all about practical tips and useful things you can actually use, but I’m noticing mindset teachings are becoming popular again in the self-help world and even in the copywriting and marketing field.

BG: Many people are offering courses on direct mail copy. There are plenty of books out there. I’m sure you know Bob Bly.

MKL: Yes, I know Bob.

BG: He’s a close friend of mine and he’s written a hundred books. They buy his books and I recommend them. He’s picked up some of my stuff along the way in some of them. People are willing to sign up for these courses hoping to become better copywriters. Good luck to them.

I remember I went to Bernard Baruch for a while. I went there after I did so lousy in high school. I eventually went back to Bernard Baruch School of Business. I went there for two years at night and while I was there, I studied copywriting and I studied commercial art… they had a course in commercial art.

I realized these guys who were teaching copywriting really didn’t know anything. And I had been out there already in the marketplace. They really didn’t know what they were talking about, Yeah, you go into advertising it’s a 15% commission, and blah, blah, blah. They didn’t know how to teach copywriting, and they didn’t know how to teach advertising.

BG: I went there and I saw what was going on. I also took commercial art and studied some commercial art there. That, incidentally, and the drafting I took in high school kind of made me see things as they are.

I represent things… pretty much when I paint them… they’re fairly realistic. I try and get away from that. And interestingly Matthew, my hands shake when I paint and consequently when I paint, I can’t draw straight lines. So, I adapted the Monet style of painting, which was using lots of little dabs of paint to compensate. And the stuff comes out pretty good. I’m happy with that. Yeah, you know, you adapt. It’s what it is.

MKL: Yeah, I’ve seen some of your paintings on Facebook. You are talented. You are a good painter.

BG: Well thank you. I appreciate that. In fact [laughing] I appreciate that more than people saying I’m a good copywriter. When I speak to the guy at the gallery, he also has some of the artifacts and collectibles I’ve picked up over the years… he sells ‘em. The first thing I ask him is, “How many of my painting did you sell?” I’m more interested in selling my paintings than I am the other stuff. If I have any ego… that’s where it is.

MKL: So, let me ask you this. I’ve got a few more questions for you. Are you able to keep going?

BG: Yeah, go ahead.

MKL: Ok. So, when you get a project, how do you get into your target audience’s mind? How do you study or approach your target audience or target market, which of course is going to help you know what to write? Can you share your process with us?

BG: Of course. The first thing I do is question the client quite a bit about what he’s going through, his experiences, and what the market, in general, is out there. He tells me. I then go and research some of the things he’s telling me.

Then I go beyond that. I look for developments that would affect his product… what’s going on out in the world. I often will refer to that and get back to the client and ask, “Do you know that this is going on, and how close are you to that?”

So, always look for that extra edge that might be out there. So, I’ll do a lot of personal research before I put a word on paper. Then I will start to write.

MKL: Ok. So today, I assume that involves Google? How do you do it?

BG: Well actually Google is a very handy thing… even with my simple smart phone I can ask it questions about somebody or something and the thing will come up with an answer instantly.

To get those are answers in the past, I used to literally have to climb… I’d go to the public library and climb up ladders to get to the upper shelves and they used to have a balcony. I’d be roaming through books trying to find answers for things I was about to write.

And here, I can ask my telephone. And the telephone tells me the stuff I need to know. It’s such a time-saver. It’s amazing. But of course, on the computer I just go to Google, I ask similar questions, and I get more detailed answers. It’s a marvelous age for the obtaining of information. It’s wonderful.

MKL: Yeah, absolutely. So you say “Hey Siri”… is that how you do it?

BG: I ask… I have Alexa here. I say, “Alexa, tell me about this, this, and that.” And even while I’m talking to you, occasionally my phone will come alive and listen to what I’m talking about. It can pick it up. And it’ll ask me a question. What’s happening? [laughter] You’re being spied on constantly. It’s amazing.

MKL: I don’t know if you saw this post I did last week… or a couple of weeks ago… but I took my kids to the dentist and talked to the dentist about one of my kids possibly needing braces. I came home. Talked to my wife for fifteen minutes about braces for the kid. The next thing I know, I’m seeing tons of ads in my FaceBook feed for these Invisalign teeth straightening products.

BG: Yeah, the stuff is printed out by the computer. I guess you’re right. It’s amazing…. just by your inquiries on the Internet.

MKL: Yeah, I had not done any searches on Invisalign. It was simply me talking. So, my phone was obviously listening to me.

BG: I have that, too. I have the same thing. It’s all right, I can tolerate it. It’s when I get a lot of scam calls. That really bothers me. It disturbs me they obtain senior lists and they sell to them in the most obscene ways.

I had a call… in fact, I had several of the same call… where I pick up the phone and it says, “Grandpa.” I say, “Yeah.” It says, “I’m in trouble. I was in a car with some of my friends. The police took us in. I need some money to get out.” I was fooled the first time. After that, I said, “Is this Michael?” And he’d say, “Yeah.” And I’d say, “Well my grandson’s name is not Michael. Get your act together, kid.” And I’d hang up.

They pull some scams today. They are heartless. They tell you you owe the IRS money or somebody used your credit card, ran up some debt. It’s terrible. And most of them are operating from India.

MKL: Yeah, right. I’ve had several calls from India myself actually and I’m not a senior. They do that thing telling people we need to help you with your computer.

BG: Yeah, your computer is causing you some problems. If you give us certain information or you put some money on your credit card, we can work out your problems. You can buy a credit card at the department store and send it to us, and we can work out your problems. I mean it’s terrible!

They don’t do anything about that. That’s how it is. So, let me ask you a question Matthew Kaboomis… how’d you get that name?

MKL: Ha ha! Actually, I did not give that name to myself, but it is kind of a copywriting story. I had a managing editor I was working under who started calling me that. He really liked my ad copy, so he would read my ad and say, “Kaboomis!” He would say that in an email and even in front of the whole team. So yeah, when I started working for myself, I decided to make that my brand, so to speak.

BG: It works! Matthew Kaboomis Loomis. That’s really something and it’s hard to forget.

MKL: [Laughing] Yeah, that was the point. That was the purpose. ‘Cuz there’s a lot of Matthew Loomis’ on the Internet, right? So, I just needed to stand out somehow.

BG: Well you do. You do.

MKL: Well thanks. Now that everybody has heard your story, Bob… and I think you’re at an enviable position… I imagine so many people would also love to be doing something that they love for a living their whole life. It just sounds so wonderful.

I want to ask you this Bob, there’s got to be one thing about copywriting you don’t like. If there’s anything… what would it be?

BG: I have to think about that one. Well, it’s hard to answer. I’ve got to tell you you’re going to find this hard to believe. Doing this over 25 years, only three times have I ever had a client ever bounce a piece of copy back to me saying it was not acceptable. One was from a marketing director who just didn’t like it, and I didn’t agree. And another one was somebody who thought it wasn’t right.

But I guess the answer to your question is the few times working with unreasonable clients… and you’ll get them occasionally, but if you want to keep the client, you’ve got to humor them. That would be the only negative aspect of writing copy. The whole copywriting experience has been a good one for me. I like it. As I said, two things in life I could do… I could write well, and I could draw. Copywriting turned into the way I could support my family comfortably.

MKL: Yes. So, let’s boil down your top three skills a copywriter needs to possess. I know you said something like the ability to tell a story… would that be one?

BG: I would say that the ability to tell a story, boldness… you brought that one up, that’s one of them… and I think also the absolute belief in yourself that you have the ability, because I think that’s contagious. I think speaking to a client, they can see that, and they want to hire you. And I believe knowing how to get clients is very important. You have to go out and pursue them. Going out attending seminars, conferences, and making friends and asking those friends to recommend you.

BG: I remember I had one guy recommended me to this person in Las Vegas. I was in Caesar’s Palace. They told me to go upstairs. He was willing to see me, this guy. I went up. There was a guy that looked like Al Pacino… I swear. Then this oriental girl opened the door and she’s in a robe… like the movies! I hear the voice in the back of her say, “Is that Bob Gaines? Tell him to come in.” I went in and this guy looks just like Al Pacino. “Bob, I heard that you did some stuff, good writing,” he said. “I own this town.” He brought me out to the balcony overlooking Vegas. He says, “I handle the printing. Nobody realizes, but I handle the printing for everything in Vegas. I do the menus, I do their little flyers, I do the little things they put on tables. I do everything. I do place mats… I got this. This is all mine.” He says, “I need somebody to do some writing. I also sell a lot of stuff and I heard you’re good.” So, I said, “Oh gee, thanks.” Anyway, I got maybe 6, 7, 8 assignments from this guy. And eventually, he passed on.

I remember I got a call from some members of his family to meet them at the Bellagio in the coffee shop. There were some relatives and I guess some heirs. And they wanted my assurance that I would continue working for them. I think they were fighting over his estate. I said, “Yeah sure. Why not? Yes.” So, they said, “Great.” We shook hand, got up, but I never heard from them again. They couldn’t work out an agreement on who owned all the properties, all the companies, and all of his money. So that ended that.

I remember this guy. He was really unusual. I’ve got such experiences. I’ve met such interesting people. You wouldn’t believe all the people… characters… I’ve met in this business. It’s really an interesting experience I went through.

MKL: Have you thought about writing an autobiography?

BG: Well a couple of people have approached me to write a book.

BG: I did ghost write a book once, but I decided at this point in my life it’s too big an undertaking. No, I don’t think so.

MKL: Well I think you should. I want to encourage you to write an autobiography. I think people in the industry, like me, would love to read it. Even a lot of these stories would appeal to just about anybody, really.

BG: Well that’s nice to hear… that’s flattering. Thank you for that.

My wife says the same thing and other people say that, but I steer away from that. Maybe I’m getting lazy in my old age.

One time, I was also Deputy Mayor of a town. I don’t know if I told you that. It was Randolph Township of New Jersey. The same time I had… as I told you in the beginning… I had a three-times-a-week, fifteen-minute radio program and I wrote a weekly article for one of the New Jersey newspapers. And I was also the Manager of Direct Response Marketing for the General Learning Corporation at the same time. So, I was a very busy guy.

I don’t think I was really lazy. Unfortunately, during that time my wife miscarried, and I felt bad because, I guess, I overlooked her too much and it was a lot for her. I’m sorry I took that much on and didn’t spend more time with her. I did a lot of things back in those years.

MKL: So Bob, what would you say if a small business owner came to you and said, “You know, I’m thinking about hiring a copywriter but I’m not sure if I should?” Why should a small business owner hire a copywriter?

BG: I’d have to pull out the P&L. I’d have to do a profit and loss statement on his basic product assuming he has money for paid advertising, direct mail… be it newspaper or ads, some radio or TV… and to see if the product he has warrants that.

It’s much like when you go on the Shark Tank, you have to always look at the numbers. You have to understand his numbers. But assuming that it did, I could probably recommend a couple of top copywriters for him to look up and ask them to do some work.

BG: I think it’s always good to have a marketing consultant at the very least at his disposal who can advise and tell him what to do.

One of the big parts of success is, we did a lot of press releases in my time. Press releases did very well, and they wound up reaching millions of people. And that was a very low cost.

So, there are all kinds of things you can do. It would depend on what his business is and, yes, I would suggest hiring a marketing guy and making that one-time investment.

BG: I also would be interested in what his business looks like… if it’s a store, whether or not he’s getting visibility. As I said, I have a representative in a gallery in Long Island. I’m never happy with this guy’s visibility. There are trees right in front of his place. You ride by in a car, you blink, and you’ve passed it. He’s got to get a big sign out there and do more… the guy doesn’t listen. He doesn’t realize I was once a highly paid copy and marketing consultant. He just thinks I’m one of his clients. He doesn’t listen.

But yes, if a guy came to me, I’d want to know about his business. I’d want to do some numbers. But I would probably suggest his getting a marketing consultant to help him at the very least.

MKL: Very good. So, I think we may want to wrap this up. I could talk to you all day, but let me ask you, what do you think about the future of copywriting when it comes to artificial intelligence… AI? Do you think that these bots, these artificial intelligence bots that write copy will be able to eventually replace human beings? Do you think that’s possible? What are your thoughts on that?

BG: My thoughts are they will never replace human beings because they have to understand pretty much how human beings think. So, like the assignments we’ve discussed, you have to know so much about the product, the business. It’s easy to say, yeah they could use pat phrases and stuff. I don’t think it will ever be possible. No.

MKL: So, you’re not worried at all?

BG: No, I don’t worry because I’m not in competition with them, thank God. I just don’t think they pose any threat to good copywriters who’ll be out there for the next 5, 10 years. No.

MKL: Gotcha. I tend to agree. It’s interesting because human beings can study how a dog thinks, right? I know humans are much more complex, but who’s to say an AI bot wouldn’t be able to eventually figure out human beings?

BG: And again, I told you good copywriters also see concepts. If a bot was given the assignment to write copy about a product, I don’t know if it would necessarily go off on a tangent and think of concepts relative to that product to make it more potentially saleable. I don’t think it would think about that.

MKL: Yeah, I think it’s a long ways off.

BG: I don’t think it will really happen. I always think you need a human being writing advertising that will generate results.

I think there are certain types of ads that… there are help wanted ads, there are apartments for sale, you know for rent… I guess a bot could pick up that stuff and write it easily. But other kinds of things, no.

MKL: Classified ads, right. Very simple stuff. Bob, is there anything you’d like to promote before we go?

BG: No, I’m not looking to promote anything, or myself, or anything like that. No, not really.

MKL: Are there any social media channels you would like to share to connect with people? Like can someone follow you on twitter of FaceBook?

BG: Well I’m on FaceBook all the time. You’ve probably seen me. I’m on there all the time. I’m always posting my paintings. I started a podcast, but I was told there’s a certain amount of legal jeopardy that you get involved with. You’ve got to be careful what you say. Today you could very easily be sued. And I don’t want to be in a position whereby somebody sues me for something that I said without my thinking properly, having to hire legal counsel, and taking on the tremendous legal expense to fight it. With that thinking, I say why bother?

So, I’m not interested in doing that at this point.

BG: As I said, if I was twenty years younger, I’d be all over the place.

There are so many things. I’m still fascinated by dating clubs. I think there’s tremendous opportunity in dating sites. There are affinities between all kinds of people you can come up with and put together. And there’s big money in that. And there are outside companies that will work with you if they think they can make a buck.

MKL: Yeah, I was curious, if one of those dating sites… back when I was using those sites… was when you were working for them? I know you don’t want to mention them but…

BG: There were some Christian sites. We also were representing an expert, actually, he was a sex expert, but he was a psychologist that worked exclusively with CBS. He was their sex expert who came on occasionally.

If you signed up for a dating site today, you have to pretty much provide a lot of info about yourself prior to being listed. And it can be a long, complex thing that some people don’t like to do. It takes time, etc.

So, this guy, this doctor, he was a Ph.D., he came up with a short questionnaire, which by virtue of maybe 4 or 5 questions pretty much qualified you as the type of person… proper person, perfect person… you should be on-line. So right away there was a lot of interest in it.

BG: But when we first started putting out press releases on it, out of the blue came a couple of other doctors, Ph.D.’s, and universities who questioned this methodology he was introducing. And they said they thought it wouldn’t work. Instead of just overlooking it, his nose got out of joint. He got into a debate with them. So, with that, they ganged up on him and they tore him apart, which killed the viability of the system that he was selling. It could have been worth a lot of money and we could have done an awful lot with it, but he destroyed himself in the process.

But the dating thing has a lot of possibilities. Still, there are a lot of people who share things in common that, if you bring them together or the possibility of their meeting, I think you can get a lot of business.

MKL: Yeah. I know the founder of eHarmony. He started out as like a…

BG: Exactly! eHarmony was one of the most successful sites out there. And he was somebody we were trying to interest in a couple of sites we created. It’s not that difficult to do if you have the right product.

MKL: Yeah, he had a background in psychology, I believe. He wasn’t a businessman or a marketer, really.

BG: He was in with a couple of guys and they made this thing work. We were steered to them.

I’ll tell you, Matthew, you meet all kinds of people in this business as you travel down life’s trail. And sometimes they’re good people and other times they’re not so good people.

You gotta be careful.

You only got so much time in your life to do things. So, you also don’t want to tie yourself up where you’re doing stuff in the long run that may not be profitable or may not feed into what you want out of life.

The feelings and the good things you want to do, I‘ve always used that as my guide.

MKL: Yeah, wow! That is some good wisdom there, Bob.

Speaking to you is something I’ve been wanting to do for a while. And I just want to thank you for meeting up with me, telling your story, and answering some questions here.

BG: My pleasure.

MKL: I suspect that a lot of people are going to enjoy what you had to say.

BG: How many people follow you? How many people do you have on your podcast?

MKL: Well, it depends on the channel. I’ve got over 1000 on YouTube. There are over 2000 on Twitter. There are 1500 on FaceBook. And then I have this email list that’s got over 15,000. And I’m planning to use a little SEO on this, too. I’m hoping this will bring in some organic traffic on my blog. It’s going to be on my website…. on my copywriting and marketing website.

BG: You know, if you want to list my email address, you’re perfectly free to do that… which is Boga3134@aol.com. If anybody needs some advice or guidance, I’d be glad to talk to them.

MKL: That’s very generous of you. Yeah, I can do that. I’m going to see if I can use this audio as well… maybe put this in writing. I may have this transcribed.

BG: Good!

MKL: As far as photos go, could I use a few off your FaceBook profile? Do I have your permission to do that?

BG: Pick out some good ones [chuckling].

MKL: Ok. I’ll include maybe one or two of your paintings, too.

BG: I appreciate that. Tell them my paintings are for sale. If they contact me personally, I’ll sell it to them cheaper than they charge at the gallery.

MKL: Okay, there you go. That’s an irresistible offer!

Anybody listening to this audio, you can contact Bob directly, tell him you heard this interview through Matthew Kaboomis Loomis, and he’ll give you a discount.

BG: You’ll get the “Matthew Kaboomis Loomis Discount”. A good one, too!

MKL: All right, awesome! Hey Bob, thank you again so much for talking with me today.

BG: Thank you. And Matthew, stay well and good luck. And if I ever can do anything for you, don’t hesitate to call.

MKL: The same goes for you too, Bob. Thank you.

End of Part 3

Make Bob’s day. Order an original, signed painting by this copywriting legend. And don’t forget to use your “Matthew Kaboomis Loomis Discount”!

READ: A Copywriting Career for the Ages: The Bob Gaines Story–Part 1

How to Make the New Year Better than Last Year

January 11, 2022 By Matthew Kaboomis Loomis

I know it’s already the 11th of January – but HAPPY NEW YEAR, anyway! haha

You probably heard that a few times already. 😉

Despite closing in on two weeks into the new year, 2022 is still a newborn baby, and there’s a lot to look forward to – you still have plenty of time to influence, mold, and shape this new year into something enjoyable and exciting.

That’s why I thought I’d share with you a little exercise I did last week – this one is different than the usual “New Year’s Resolutions” you see everywhere, blah blah blah.

Past Year Review

You can do this new year planning hack in 30 minutes. I learned this from Tim Ferris (the 4 Hour Work Week dude.)

Here is what you do:

Grab a notepad and create two columns: POSITIVE and NEGATIVE.
Go through your calendar from the last year, looking at every week.
For each week, jot down on the pad any people or activities or commitments that triggered peak positive or negative emotions for that month. Put them in their respective columns.
Once you’ve gone through the past year, look at your notepad list and ask, “What 20% of each column produced the most reliable or powerful peaks?”
Based on the answers, take your “positive” leaders and schedule more of them in the new year. Get them on the calendar now! Book things with friends and prepay for activities/events/commitments that you know work. It’s not real until it’s on the calendar. That’s step one. Step two is to take your “negative” leaders, put “NOT-TO-DO LIST” at the top, and put them somewhere you can see them each morning for the first few weeks of 2022. These are the people and things you *know* make you miserable, so don’t put them on your calendar out of obligation, guilt, FOMO, or other nonsense.

That’s it!

A bonus I discovered while doing this exercise involves GRATITUDE. I found myself flexing my gratitude muscles as I reviewed my 2021 and recalled several things I experienced that induced some warm feelings of gratitude in my heart.

This technique also helped me clarify a few people and things that I need not give time to this new year.

Let me know if you do this exercise and how it goes.

Cheers to 2022,

Matthew

A Copywriting Career for the Ages: The Bob Gaines Story–Part 1

October 11, 2020 By Matthew Kaboomis Loomis

Bob Gaines has had a legendary copywriting career and here’s the amazing part: he’s still writing copy at age 89!

That’s right–Gaines has been writing sales copy for over 65 years.

I have been “Facebooks friends” with Bob Gaines for a few years, and over time I began to notice how much wisdom Gaines has accumulated through his lifetime. He is a likable guy, but also speaks his mind, and is not shy about expressing his views on many subjects.

But Gaines doesn’t self promote his copywriting services nor share a lot about his past copywriting career, which is why I decided to call him and find out his story.

Because I knew he probably has an amazing story to tell–and he did.

So I recorded the audio of our 96 minute interview, and decided have it transcribed.

Please enjoy this Bob Gaines: Legendary Copywriting Career interview…his story needed to be told, as it is one of those “American Dream” stories filled with ups and downs, challenges and triumphs.

This is Part 1, where Gaines shares his story. In Parts 2 and 3 (Coming soon! I promise!), I begin asking Bob questions about his copywriting craft–his thought process, how he works, and we get into more specifics about his work.

Alright, here we go!

A Copywriting Career for the Ages: The Bob Gaines Story

MKL: First of all, I would love to hear your story. Can you tell us how you became a copywriter? What made you want to be a copywriter?

BG: First off, I’m was a lousy student both in elementary school and high school in New York that’s one of the worst high schools in New York.

But two things that I can kind of do better than other kids, I can write a little and I can draw a little. And I remember, I was going to elementary school, I’m a lousy student, I had one of those attention deficit things I think, and I was always daydreaming.

BG: But nevertheless, the war was on and I was short for my age. So we had like five rows of students. I was in the fifth row, last seat and the teacher… I had a teacher in the 8^th grade who was a man in probably in his mid-seventies but a very patriotic American.

The war was in its dwindling stages, so as a composition activity every once in a while, he’d have the kids write a composition about what the war meant to them.

And this one particular day, I remember he had all the kids write a composition. He started from the first row and he said, “Mary Smith, tell me what the war means to you.” And she stood up and read her little composition and said, “Well, my father’s in the army and I hope he comes back soon and I hope he gets Hitler.” And he said, “Very good Mary.” Next he would go, “Johnny go.” And Johnny said, “My uncle Sid is overseas and I know he’s anxious to get to those Japs and he’s gonna do a good job.” And he said, “Thanks Johnny.” Then he went around to all the kids and all the compositions were basically the same.

BG: So, I somehow didn’t see language as they did and when he called on me, he said, “Ok Robert, read yours.” And before he said that he said, “Ok students, this is how it should have been written.” Which of course, made every kid in that class hate me.

But nevertheless, you know, I read my composition and I said, “It was two-thirty AM in Aerodrome number six, 14 miles behind enemy lines. I was behind the white cliffs of Dover. Twenty-seven B-24’s were lined up for a raid over Munich. Each one was manned by a pilot who had it in his mind to destroy as much Nazi war planes and munitions as possible.”

And I read this composition. And there was my teacher, I remember, he was Mr. Draddy, standing there holding his vest and looking at me proudly. And then he says, “Ok, thank you, Robert.” And that was one of the things I could do well.

BG: So, when I graduated, I remember I barely graduated. I got lousy marks, but I also got the art award, which was another nice thing Mrs. Kalish our art teacher… there were two or three others that could draw better than me… she gave me an art award. I was in the assembly at graduation and they read my name for the art award. I remember I slunk down in my seat. And she said, “Now Robert, you go down and get your art award.” So, I went down and got my art award.

I went on to high school. I picked out a high school that had drafting as a specialty ‘cuz I thought I could draw well and maybe I could become a draftsman. Well I was into that for about two weeks and I hated it. But somehow, I graduated, and I was out in the world.

BG: And my first job was for a merchandising company that had, I think, 40 stores. And I was in the mailroom.

And I remember the secretary of the president of the company came into us one day. And we had a machine where we could duplicate layouts. Then they would send them to the various stores where they could run them in their stores and make mats. They used to use mats in those days.

Anyway, she said to us, “The president’s son, his dog got hit by a car and the kid was absolutely devastated. And in order to try and make him feel better they told him to write little bit about it and maybe to draw a picture of his dog,” and she gave it to us… the writing and this little picture the he drew. “Maybe you can do something and staple it and make it look like a little book or something.” Somehow it wound up in my hands, so I took the kid’s description of how he felt and how it happened.

I typed it up and edited it slightly, so it was easier to read. I took the picture of his dog and I reworked it so it looked more like a dog. I ran it off and put it in a little booklet form, stapled it, and brought it into the secretary. And she, said, “Thank you very much.” And to make a long story short, two weeks later I was promoted to the advertising department, which was right in the next room.

BG: So, there I was. I was doing what they used to do in those days, paste ups, where they took photographs and pasted them down to boards with the type already set.

And from that they made the mats. The mats were sent to the stores. The stores ran them in their particular cities. At any rate, that was my first taste of advertising. I was there for a couple of years and I left to go into active duty in the army.

When I came out, I went through a series of jobs, which took me into little ad agencies, and I worked briefly at Bloomingdale’s as assistant to the production manager in their downstairs store. Eventually, I was promoted to production manager of branch store advertising upstairs. Meanwhile, all along I was picking up little bits of advertising… how you did it. I learned how to spec type and I ran a lot of copy.

Eventually, I left there and went to a series of small ad agencies, from one to another. Finally, I made a short stop in the insurance industry, the New York Life Insurance Company, which I also hated, but I was there long enough to learn how to sell. How to motivate people to want to buy a policy. I always remembered those things.

BG: Well as time went on, I got married and had to settle down a bit.

I looked for a job and I had two offers. One was for an insurance company, which I certainly didn’t want even though it paid a little more money. And the other one was for a company called Oxford Book Company.

They published these little Regents Review books. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen them but here in New York they included Regents…copies of the Regents tests, which students had to take in order to graduate.

I literally sold them through the mail. I was hired and my salary was $70/week. They told me, if you do well in six weeks, we’ll raise your salary to $75/week. So there I was, hired. I was now the advertising manager of this little company.

So I started to design some layouts and write some copy here and there. To make a long story short, in six weeks I got a raise, not to $75/week, but $80/week, which was the raise I was most proud of all my life. Well I was there for a while… actually for nine years.

BG: I went onto General Learning Corporation, which was owned by Time Life Books and General Electric.

I was there as assistant to the advertising manager. There I did all kinds of things like scheduling the ads, and helping him pick out the various educational media.

There were a lot of magazines, publications which catered to teachers, etc. And they advertised their books and things. That was my job. But while I was there, I just took it upon by myself… in as much as I worked for Oxford Book Company… to pick out one of their supplemental materials and do a brochure. I designed the brochure on my own time and brought it into the advertising manager. He looked at it and kinda pooh-poohed it and stuck it in his drawer.

Well what happened next was maybe the turning point in my career. You still with me Matthew?

MKL: Oh yeah, I’m still here. 🙂

BG: We were owned by, as I said, Time Life Books and General Electric.

General Electric had sent down John Backe to be the new marketing manager. He later became the president of CBS, the great CBS, and full president years later. Anyway, on one particular day, my boss was out with a bad back, but I was in the office.

It was like a Monday… no, it was a Friday, I’m sorry. And he came down and introduced himself. He said his name was John Backe and he just wanted to meet the people, etc, etc. He said to me, “What do you do.” I said, “Well, I’m the assistant to the ad manager. I schedule ads and I pick out the media.” He said, “Interesting. What do did you do before.” I said, “I worked on this company called Oxford Book Company and I used to actually sell books through the mail.” So he said, “You actually sold books through the mail? You can do that?” I said, “Yeah, direct mail, yeah sure.” He said, “No kidding? Very interesting. I’m glad met you.”

BG: Well the following Monday my boss was back in and they had a manager’s meeting.

And this was in their Morristown headquarters. It was also the headquarters for one of their divisions; the Eastern Division, their Library Division, they had one other division there, and my boss.

They were all sitting in. Word came down I should walk down to this meeting. I came in and John Backe says to all of them, “You know Bob Gaines, don’t you?” They all nodded their heads, you know… yeah, yeah, yeah. He said, “Well I spoke to Bob last week and he told me something interesting. Bob said he actually sold books through the direct mail. Tell us about it Bob.” I said, “Yeah, I sold books through the mail and at times I sold supplemental materials through the mail… you can do that.” One of the salesmen said, “Yeah, but all of our territories are covered by adoption requirements.” You know, all the books they sold had to be adopted in those states in order for schools to buy them. I interrupted and said, “No, not for supplemental materials. There’s no adoption required.” So, John Backe turned around to them and he said, “What do you think about Bob being able to sell supplemental materials through direct mail?”

I swear, they all laughed for 5 minutes! And I was kind of embarrassed. John Backe thanked me, and I went back to my office. When my boss came back, he didn’t speak to me for two days.

BG: At any rate, word came down that I should go to the Toronto Direct Mail Institute to receive further training.

And there in Toronto was a guy… I don’t know if you ever heard of him, his name was Edwin Mayer. And Ed Mayer was considered one of the absolute copywriting geniuses in the business. He was heading up this institute. In that institute there were many people who were later on headed famous corporations here in America. But I had a chance to rub shoulders with him.

We divided into teams. We worked on assignments preparing campaigns for fictional products. But it was one of the most enlightening experiences I’ve had. So, when I came back, I had to write a four-page report on what I learned, what I thought about, and I did, etc, etc.

Next thing I get word John Backe wants me to form my own little direct marketing… direct mail department… I guess it was called at one time. I was the Manager of Direct Mail to try and sell some of General Learning’s supplemental materials. He said pick anything you want and we’ll see how it goes. So I had given this layout…

MKL: [lost connection] Hey Bob, you suddenly cut out. You got cut off right as you were starting the new direct mail department.

BG: Right. He told me to pick out any product I wanted and I went back to the advertising manager and I said, “Do you remember that brochure I gave you about a year ago that I designed and you stuck in your drawer?” And he said, “Yes.” And I said, “Well that’s the one I’d like to mail.” So, he took it out and said, “All right, be my guest.”

I gave it to the advertising production manager there and she turned it into mechanicals… they called it mechanicals in those days, preparatory to printing. She did the mechanicals and the advertising manager saw it before even I did and sent them on to John Backe. And John Backe called us both down to his office and he said to my boss, “I understand you’re not happy with what Bob prepared. Why?” The advertising manager said, “Well, it’s got all kinds of blow-outs with the word ‘FREE’ on there and all kinds of other… it’s not us!”

And John Backe said, “Right now we’re bleeding money. I don’t care about us. I want to sell product. Here’s what I want you, as the advertising manager, to take the same product and prepare it – and I add, as you would prepare it – if you wanted to sell it. And Bob, I authorize you to mail this one and we’ll see how they do as both are mailed.” So we mailed, and to make a long story short…his produced $8,616 and mine produced $28,000. And that killed his credibility there forever.

BG: Now I was authorized to go ahead and do my own direct marketing, direct mail operation.

I was off and running. To make a long story short, the first year I lost about $2,000, which was not a very good start. But nevertheless, he didn’t give up on me. He let me go another year. Next year I made like 20 to 30 thousand. And from then on… I was there with the company for nine years… and when I left we were making millions.

BG: By now I had been invited to speak at some seminars on educational marketing.

I had a little bit of a reputation and I was being contacted by headhunters. I agreed to take a job in Connecticut for Traveler’s Insurance, which was taking over a publishing company in lieu of their not being able to pay money that they owed Traveler’s.

I was now their Marketing Director. I was working with the guy from Traveler’s they put in charge of the operation. I prepared profit and loss statements, which was something new to all these people, which amazed me because none of them worked with profit and loss statements. I had fortunately, when I was with General Learning, met a guy who showed me how important P&L statements were.

You had to know what a potential mailing was likely to pull. The maximum and the minimum. If the minimum was still ok… mail it. I always went with using that judgment. So I took the job and the job lasted for two months. I remember, Christmas week I got news that Traveler’s had changed their mind, decided not to go ahead with it and I was out of work.

BG: Now I had a couple of kids and was married.

I was really anxious about what I was going to do. I remember, from that point I was looking and speaking at seminars, as I said. I was approached by Bill Pesce, who had an ad agency in New York… Barbini, Pesce. He said he heard what I said [at the seminar] and wanted to give it a direct mail component and would I be interested in joining the company. I said yeah, if the salary was right.

I gave him the salary I was making before, which was $22,000 per year. He agreed to that and I went to work for him. About 23-24 weeks later, I became a partner in the company and was there for six years. It was a very interesting experience for me. I went from potential client to potential client and spoke to them about their direct mail needs, their profit and loss statements, some copy, etc, etc.

One of the clients was Ziff-Davis. I remember, I was getting tired of working for the company… had some differences with Bill Pesce, although he was a nice guy, now deceased.

BG: So, I went to a headhunter and told him I was looking for a job.

He sent me off, of all places, to Ziff-Davis. I really didn’t want to work with them because when I had him as a client, I really didn’t enjoy doing their stuff. But then when I went up there, right away I seemed to impress someone.

Next thing I know, I’m working for Ziff-Davis. Now my job is Circulation Promotion Director for 26 publications. It was a job which I was totally unprepared for. What the hell did I know about promoting circulation for 26 various magazines and newsletters. But there I was. I was there for three years. I designed a lot of stuff. It really worked very well and I stayed on there.

BG: My next job, I remember, I went to Direct Mass Marketing in New Rochelle.

There I had the opportunity to work with one of the most impressive copywriters that ever lived. A guy named Steve Brown. I was the copy guy there and my job… I’d write copy for their products and he would look at my stuff and give me any suggestions. He had a very quick mind. I worked there for a few years. At any rate, I continued to work and I wound up in another company for another one of the most impressive people that I ever worked with. A guy named Dave Reichberg, who once had the Reichberg-Ross Agency which was a very well-known, successful agency in its time.

I went there when they were in New Rochelle. I was their Creative Director. While I was there a few years, I wrote their stuff. They sold all kinds of memberships. I wrote the copy. The stuff worked, so it went on and on over the years.

BG: Eventually I wound up in California and I was there for, I guess, a half a year.

There I met a guy named Tony Brown, who was another very suave, shrewd guy. I had seen his advertising in one of the trades and he was looking for a Creative Director in California. I did a very ballsy thing. I sent him a message and said, “I saw your ad. I’m your man. I’m gonna be in Vegas on New Year’s Eve. If you’re interested in meeting me, meet me there and we’ll talk.”

So, he was in California of course, and I knew it was a short hop from Irvine, California… Orange County. Sure enough he said fine, I’ll met you. We met that morning… the morning of New Year’s Eve… at Bally’s Coffee Shop. And he said, “Why should I hire you?”

In those days I used to take eight or nine of my direct mail packages, put them in a 9X12 envelope and carry them with me. That’s all I took. I took the envelope, put it down on this table and said, “This is why.” And he looked at the stuff and he said, “Can you come out to Irvine and spend some time. I’d like you to meet my people.” I said, “Sure.”

BG: A week or two later I was out there with my wife and son.

He introduced me to all his staff out there. They seemed impressed. The next thing he asked me… he came back to our hotel… we were staying in a hotel, at an inn actually, where John Wayne used to stay when he was in California. Tony came out to see me on this Sunday. “Well,” he said. “All the people liked you and were impressed with you. I’d like you to come on board.” “Wait a minute,” I said. “I’m not ready to make that decision. Don’t forget, I have a home in Long Island. I have to sell that. It’s a big decision to make. And the conversation would have to be correct.” “Well”, he said. “I’d pay you $165, 000 per year.”

The lights went on in my head. I said, “I’ll have to let you know. I need a little time.” So, he said, “How much time do you need.” I said, “Well, I can check back with you next Friday after I get back.” I always made it a point to not make any decision right away.

BG: When I got back to New York, I waited and finally he called me.

He said, “You make up your mind?” I said, “Well, I’m still a little… still not sure.” And he said, “165? That’s not enough?” I said, “Well, I have to make sure there’s something after that if I succeed.” He said, “I’ll tell you what, I’ll pay you $65,000 in a bonus at the end of your contract. I guarantee you that, win or lose.” I said, “Ok, I’m on board.”

So, we started to try and sell our house. We lived in Baldwin on the water out here on Long Island. It was very hard to find a buyer in those days. We looked and looked and somehow just couldn’t find a buyer.

Meanwhile, we also were traveling back to Irvine in Orange County, California looking for a house there, assuming we were gonna move there. We also couldn’t find anything that quite pleased us. At any rate, in order to allow me to start working for them, they agreed to let me come out there, stay there a week, come home, stay a week in Long Island, go back, stay a week there. So every week I was flying back and forth from Irvine to Long Island, Long Island to Irvine. And I did that for six months.

At the end of six month, they contacted me, and they told me that they decided not to renew my contract and…

MKL: Hey, we lost you again.

BG: I don’t know what happened that time. At any rate, they didn’t renew my contract and I was now, more or less, on my own.

I decided I had to do something to make a living. I decided to do some direct marketing consulting. What I would do is go company to company and charge them $1,000 a recommendation and see what that would do for me. I found I was doing not bad. I was getting 5 or 6 of those a month, but 5 or 6 thousand dollars a month wasn’t going to carry all my expenses.

So, I had to do something more and decided I would do writing full-time. I’d go as a direct mail copywriter.

BG: I took you the long way… anyway, I was now looking for copywriting clients.

I would make it a point to attend all of the conferences and seminars. And in New York every year we had something called Direct Mail Day and I would simply… I would not even register… I would simply go in, stand at the top of the escalator and wait for faces that I recognized. I would approach them, shake their hands, and they’d say, “What are you doing?” Then I’d do the same thing I did in Vegas. I’d get them over to a table, empty out my 9X12 envelope. In many instances they’d say, “Ok, can you do this one for me, can you do that one for me?” I was picking up business.

I was picking up a lot of business.

And so my consulting career was launched. I’ve been doing that for about now, I guess, 25, 26 years. And that’s where I am. I’ve met a lot of very interesting people along the way. And it’s been a great experience.

MKL: Yeah, Bob that’s a really, really great history of the advertising industry in the United States. Really cool stuff there. I wanted to ask you about boldness. It sounds like it was a big factor in your career. How important is it to be bold?

End of Part 1 on Bob’s copywriting career. Stay tuned for Part 2 where Bob answers that question and a whole lot more.

The Bold Copywriting Career of Bob Gaines – Part 2 [Interview]

October 10, 2020 By Matthew Kaboomis Loomis

In Part 1 of this interview, we heard Bob Gaines share his copywriting career story from its beginnings to today.

Here in Part 2, the conversation turns to the craft of copywriting, the importance of selling, and how boldness has played a big role in Bob’s success.

Bob Gaines Shares Some of His 65 Years of Copywriting Wisdom

MKL: Yeah, Bob that’s a great history of the advertising industry in the United States. Really cool stuff there.

I wanted to as you about boldness. It sounds like it was a big factor in your career. How important is it to be bold?

BG: You touched right up on it. I was a lousy student in elementary school. I was a lousy student in high school. As I said I could write a little, I could draw a little. One thing… the third thing I had always was confidence. I never doubted my own ability.

There was no real reason for me to have such boldness… such confidence… but I did. So, I would go into those jobs and speak to the people totally confident that I could do whatever they needed. And somehow… I’m sure you sense this… potential clients and people who are going to hire you, sense something in you, whether or not you can handle the job. Fortunately, I had that boldness.

BG: I’m very glad you brought that up because too many writers today lack that skill. They just don’t have the boldness.

And the other thing, the problem today with the writers is they really only are ‘descriptors’ of a product. Somebody says, “Ok, this is what I’m selling, write some copy for it.” And they write copy with no motivation. And when all is done, it often really didn’t work.

BG: I always remember John Wannamaker. He was a great old marketer here. He had the Wannamaker stores in New York in the ‘20’s. And his thesis was… “Every piece of copy, everything you write about your business, has got to sell, sell, sell!”

Now institutional advertising is ok, but all advertising should sell one way or the other and motivate people to want to buy your product. I always believed in that.

From the headline on down to the end, you gotta sell, you had to tell a story, and you had to know how to close.

Too many of the kids today don’t know that. And unfortunately, they are being taught by college professors who really have no experience in the marketplace. They’re professors. And they teach what they think copywriting should be like.

I don’t believe you can teach… I’m going to tell you this… I don’t believe you can teach kids or anybody to be good copywriters.

I believe there are a lot of good writers out there. When I used to hire talent… I used to read their stuff that they submitted, but they weren’t copywriters. They couldn’t sell. And you just can’t teach that skill to somebody.

They have to have something in them that makes it work when they stop writing the description of a product.

BG: I always remember somebody gave me this example. They said, “The difference between a good copywriter and a bad copywriter… or a so-so copywriter, let me put it that way… a so-so copywriter, if asked to write a piece of copy to describe a pencil, he would say, ‘Well, it’s a piece of wood with a piece of graphite in the middle with a rubber on the end to erase your mistakes. And it’s very handy’.” That would be how a so-so copywriter would write it. An advertising man, a good copywriter would describe it and say, “Imagine having in your pocket at all times the means to instantly write down any idea, no matter what it is. And if you see something you want to change you can erase it on the spot and edit it. This device is called a pencil. Imagine if owning it now…” and so on.

That is what a good copywriter would view such an assignment. And as I say, there aren’t many means that kids can learn to write. And sadly, if you look at the Internet, there are a lot of courses on the Internet where they attempt to sell people methods to write copy. And they get obscene amounts of money to do that.

MKL: Right. So, are you saying you don’t know of any copywriting educational tools or sources out there that are any good?

BG: Yes. there’s none that I would recommend… yes.

MKL: Wow. So, it’s just a matter of hard-knocks experience?

BG: It’s a matter of somebody who has a gift of writing… feels he has a gift for motivation… and putting the motivational knees into whatever he writes to sell a product.

And I don’t want to use the term ‘copywriters are born’, but I almost feel like saying that. I don’t think you can teach a person to be a good copywriter.

MKL: Fascinating. Fascinating. Wow…

BG: When I worked in California… when they brought me out there… I was Vice President in charge of copy. Tony Brown had brought me out… that was the gentleman I met at Valley’s who hired me when I showed him my stuff.

And we had around the table… we had six or seven of the best copywriters in America. Some of these guys are still around and others have passed on. These guys were marvelous. I mean they could write stuff. And my job as the VP in charge of copy was basically to edit their stuff. I would look it over after they wrote it. I’d make a few changes here and there.

Usually not a lot of them were necessary. These guys were terrific. I used to almost thrill when reading their prose. It was wonderful. It was a thrill reading their language. I realized there weren’t many guys who could write like this. And I still believe that.

BG: I turn on the TV every night and I sit back with my wife and often I turn to her and I say, “Do you understand what they’re selling?” And she says, “N0!” They can’t even write an advertising commercial. It’s terrible.

MKL: Right, right.

BG: Then I see the same thing in space ads. It’s a waste of language… a waste of money. They don’t get right to the point. They don’t motivate the reader or the viewer. It’s awful. You wonder what the hell has happened out there.

MKL: Well isn’t a lot of it now considered “branding” copy instead of direct sales?

BG: Well years ago that was institutional advertising. But I don’t believe in branding. I believe even if you’re branding your product, you have to have some sell woven into it.

MKL: Right.

BG: Why waste the space? Why waste the significant bucks that you’re paying to get this stuff published or put on TV or whatever? It’s crazy.

MKL: So, there’s no books that you would recommend on copywriting?

BG: Not really.

I still… even at 89, believe it or not… and even at 89 I’m still getting like one or two assignments a month.

One of them was from some institution in Israel that raises funds for Israel’s hospitals treating kids with cancer. I’ve been writing for them for like three of four years and I just got this letter from the head of the fund. He told me please stay well, we need you. I thought it was so flattering.

He asked for the name of my mother and my father and said he was going to pray for me. He wants me to stay well because the mailings do so well.

And the funny thing Matthew, at age 89, I’m writing better than ever. Words still come to me. I’m able to do it. Yet I’m purposefully not taking more than one or two assignments a month. I don’t want to. It’s too much work.

I enjoy painting, you know. The paintings are coming out fairly well. I enjoy that. I have a gallery that sells my stuff. So, life is good at age 89!

MKL: That is amazing.

Yeah, that’s why I wanted to talk to you. I knew your age basically. I knew you were in your 80’s and that you were still working from what I understood.

BG: Yeah, I have a designation… I just spoke to Andrew Liniki. He’s a copyologist… another great name in advertising. He wanted to send me a certificate from the Copy Council of America declaring I was the oldest working copywriter in America. I said, “Naw, I’m not interested in that stuff.” He said, “You’re foolish.” I replied, “No, no. I don’t need that anymore.” At my age I don’t need that kind of stuff, you know.

That’s why I even hesitated to do this. I don’t look for the glory anymore. It’s just I enjoy what I do, and I do what I feel like doing. And that’s it.

MKL: Yah, you have an amazing story and that’s why I wanted to talk to you… to share that story.

So, you obviously have a lot of… you’ve told us your story and so much of it covers the traditional time frame of the advertising industry.

I’d like to ask you how was it for you to transition into the Internet Age… the digital age? Was there anything about the change you found difficult?

What are your thoughts on shifting to the Internet?

BG: It was a little different, of course.

We had these blanket mailings we put on to get people to go to our website and our landing page. It’s a whole different world, but basically, it’s getting people to go from the email message to the landing page.

From there on in, it wasn’t terribly different, because once they got to the landing page, the landing page was basically the old sales letter you included in your package.

And then the next thing they saw was some testimonials of what was to come, then the description of the product, then the freebies, which was the premium, and then the push to get the order.

One of the problems with that, I found, was that so many people who went to check out… there were so much technical difficulties and so much breakdown there… that people lose a lot of orders. But basically, you say the same things.

You’re just saying it within a different framework. So it wasn’t that difficult.

MKL: Let’s talk a minute about that. First of all I agree with you and I’ve heard that before… that really there’s not that much difference.

I mean you’re still trying to sell things and the process is not particularly different from digital… from traditional to digital.

I’m just curious, what do you enjoy digitally about working in the internet space the best? Like, do you enjoy emails? Do you enjoy landing pages? What do you like?

BG: Email of course you’ve got to come up with something quick to get them to go to your landing page and that’s always a challenge. And I think by now people recognize all the stuff that’s just a phony lead to get you to go to whatever they want you to go to. Then they disregard it. They just X you out.

So that’s difficult. I think, as I say, once I get to the landing page, I kind of like it.

Some of the last few things I did over the years, I was involved in dating sites and we had success with that, setting up sites. This particular one was a Christian dating site. That worked and I think the first year we got over a million people joining the site. So, I worked on that and I enjoyed it.

You know I like writing, so I look upon writing as a challenge… you know, could I make it work? Could I write a better package?

BG: And the other thing was in many instances as a consultant, and even while I was writing direct mail, I was hired by companies and they would tell me that their previous controls were no longer working. Would I look them over? I’d look them over and I’d see why.

I won’t mention names, but I was looking at packages written by some of the leading copywriters of today. Guys I recognized as geniuses and some of the best. But I would get back to the client and say, “Yeah I can see it needs changes, and so on.” And they would say, “Can you rejuvenate this package?” I’d say, “Sure.”

I’d sit down and I’d make the changes and I’d do the thing that had to be done. They’d mail it out and again the thing would start producing tremendously. I always enjoyed that. I once wrote the first successful package for “17 Magazine”.

BG: I didn’t touch upon this and I want to. One of the things of being a good copywriter… a young copywriter… when you’re given an assignment, don’t just look at the product, but look at the possibilities of what you can do with that product.

Go further than what the client asks.

Sometimes you miss an opportunity to make a lot of money for the client.

I remember when I was working for General Learning. As I said, they were owned by Time Life and General Electric. They had this bomb of a product and it was called the Phono Viewer. You may have seen it along your travels, but it looked like… from the outside… it looked like a television set. And on top there was a turntable and you’d put the arm on it, and it would play a narrative that would match whatever was being shown on the screen.

This was aimed at kids, I guess from about maybe third to seventh grade. Anyway, the thing was a bomb… and it cost a hundred bucks. So, they came to me and they said, “Look, maybe you have an idea that can sell this thing.” And with this Phono Viewer, when they paid the hundred bucks, they got a bunch of filmstrips they slip into the Phono Viewer that the Phono Viewer would play.

I looked at it and it came to me, “Ok, I think I have an idea!” So, what I did, I turned around and sold the filmstrips… educational filmstrips to give your kids this skill and that skill for a hundred bucks and as a bonus we gave them this General Electric Phono Viewer.

The educators we mailed this to saw this as such an outstanding offer, we couldn’t get enough of them. In fact, we had to set up an operation to repair these Phono Viewers ’cuz they kept breaking down. And the company had to order more. So that worked.

MKL: Great!

BG: And another time, at Time Inc, I was in charge of institutional marketing of their books, of their series, and they asked as a favor, could I send out a mailing to various schools and libraries… colleges, high schools, elementary schools, public libraries… to see what Time Life Series they had on their shelves.

In those days, and even to this day, Time Life put out many series like The Story of Great Music, The Old West, Sewing, and on and on.

But at any rate, I requested librarians to check their inventories of Time Life series. Then it hit me. I decided to check with Time Life to see if it was ok, and I said, “Ok, if you buy 3 new Time Life Series, we will give you one complete series free.” And the thing went off the charts.

They kept buying and buying. The thing was a hit. But I just pulled those things off the top of my mind. It was just what copywriters should do. In everything they should think conceptually.

Every copywriting assignment should be an opportunity to come up with some other use for the product to make more money.

MKL: Wow! So, you’ve been sharing a lot of different projects you’ve worked on over the years. Which one are you the proudest of?

BG: Oh, that’s hard to say. I did so many of them. I guess I would go back to what I did at General Learning. Setting up the direct marketing operation there and getting them into that. It was something I started from scratch and I was proud of that. Yeah, I think that was probably it.

But I still enjoy doing, as I said, the occasional writing assignment and I seem to write as good as I ever did for some strange reason. And that’s where I am.

MKL: That’s amazing. So, when you started that new department, I take it you had some people under you on your team. Is that right?

BG: I didn’t have people under me, but I had access to the regular advertising department’s production manager and one of the copywriters, although I wrote a lot of the copy. This other copywriter, who was very good, he worked with me. And the production manager, she would make up the mechanicals… they were called mechanicals in those days, which were used to print the actual material. She would make that up.

So that access was available to me. So yes, but I didn’t… at first… I had nobody working under me. No.

MKL: Ok.

BG: In fact when I did that, the person who I immediately reported to…no longer the advertising department but I had some other person that I reported to… and he thought so little of the scheme that they took me out of the Morristown office, where they had splendid quarters. I had a nice little office.

They took me and moved me four miles down the road. There was a little series of offices they owned down there. I actually was underground doing my work. And I was down there for a while. Then when the packages started to work dramatically, they pulled me out and brought me back. [laughter] Yeah, you know, I had my ups and downs literally.

MKL: Yeah, I was going to ask you if you’d ever managed other people and if you like doing that of not?

BG: Well yes. I became a partner for Balvinie-Pesce-Gaines. I was there for like six years. There was staff there. I would manage people. They had to report to me, answer to me. Yeah, I did that.

And while I was at Zif Davis, I had a secretary and three copywriters. The three copywriters would write the copy for the publications. They would then submit it to me, and I would go over it, change it. Occasionally, I would write a package on my own.

I was called in one day by management. They told me… I had a director status, which was higher than a manager and I was Director of Marketing there… so I shouldn’t write or do any work myself. Let my people do it.

So, I was kind of slapped on the wrist. I was also told it was a good idea to take an extra fifteen, twenty minutes on my lunch when I wanted. I wasn’t playing the game properly. I was learning the politics of companies and all the crap that went on. It was necessary education.

MKL: Hmm. Is that a reason why you decided to become an independent consultant, copywriter… self-employed?

BG: Well, it was one of the reasons. As I said, they didn’t renew my contract in California… and there was an interesting sidebar to that. I felt it was necessary to go out and make a living on my own.

But I have to tell you, I remember, I started like gangbusters. I was getting a lot of work immediately. As I said, I’d stand at the escalators, see people that I remembered, and show them… opening my 9X12 envelop, spilling out some brochures…stuff I did, and I’d get a lot of work.

I did that and I remember one-time business slowed up for a year or so. I was getting a little concerned. And my wife urged me to go down to New Orleans where they had a direct marketing conference. I said ok. We didn’t have the money, but I went down to New Orleans.

BG: While I was there, I did my thing in front of the escalator. I wasn’t really getting the responses I hoped.

I met one of the lawyers I knew from my freelance stuff and he said, “Did you go into the exhibition area?” I said, “Naw, I didn’t want to spend the money, I just stay here, meet some people, shake hands, and some work.” He said, “Look, take my badge and go on inside.” I said. “Ok, thanks.” I took his badge. I went inside. I got about ten feet in and I got this big bear hug in back of me. And who was it? It was Tony Brown, the guy who didn’t renew my contract after six months.

He said, “Bob, how the hell are you? I’ve been trying to get a hold of you. Blah, blah, blah. I want you to come and work for us again.” I said, “Tony, there’s no way I’m going out to Irvine, California.” He said, “No, no. You can work from home. I’ll call up my creative director and we can work out a deal on Monday.” so I said “Ok.” I went back and sure enough, I called up and he offered me $6,500 a month to write three packages. So, I did that. And I did that for I don’t know how many months. That money came in handy.

BG: The next year business picked up dramatically. So, it was funny. Fate works in strange cycles.

I always believed that… and I should tell this as a sidebar… I had one client who published books. And he published one book, which dealt with how everybody has a course in life they follow, with opportunities and they should recognize them, reach out, and take them. If they did, they somehow would come to a successful conclusion.

And this other woman wrote a book with the same publisher, and she believed that you could be anything you wanted to be, if you believed in yourself enough.

And she told me the story of Ted Williams, you know who Ted Williams was?

MKL: Yeah, a baseball player, right?

BG: Right, last guy to bat .400… great baseball player. So, she told me he used to go out to Fenway Park in Boston, which is where he played. And every morning he’d have a batting practice pitcher throw him baseballs and he’d hit. He’d hit and yell, “I’m f-ing Ted Williams and I can hit anybody in the world, including Jesus Christ!” By the time the game came, nobody could strike him out.

She gave me that as an example of people believing in themselves.

So, you can significantly make things happen. Well I read both of those books. The one that impressed me the most was the one that said, “Everybody follows a predetermined course in life, and you’ve got to recognize opportunities, reach out, and take them”.

And if you do that, luck will follow, and you have a better chance of being a success. That’s what I did all my life. I recognized opportunities and I followed them.

BG: Here I am. We live in a lovely house on Long Island. I tell my wife, “We got two cars, a swimming pool in the back, computers all over the place, so on and so forth.

Remember when we first got married, we lived in that three-flight, walk-up near the George Washington bridge and we didn’t have a pot to piss in. You’ve come a long way.” And I believe in that. I believe life reaches out to you sometimes and you’ve got to grab its hand and follow the opportunities.

MKL: Yeah, yeah. Boldness is definitely a theme running through your stories here today.

BG: Oh yeah. I never doubted my skills.

And here we have this terrible epidemic and though I wear a mask at all times, I’ve been sort of a skeptic.

As I said, I was sick the last few days. I got stomach poisoning. I ate something… I was really violently sick and had one of the worst nights I ever had… and I couldn’t get into my regular doctor. He wouldn’t take me. But I got into my heart doctor. They checked me out… ‘cuz I had some of the pains that night in the area of the heart and I was actually concerned. He gave me an EKG and a good bill of health. It was not heart related. He said, “You might check out your gall bladder when you have some time, but you’re ok.”

Even with that, he gave me a big lecture on this COVID-19 thing. And I told him I really think a lot of it was set up as a means… to be militarized against Trump.

I didn’t believe it was as bad as they said it was. And he gave me a lecture.

He told my wife, better make me behave myself, and on and on.

So, when I go into a store, I wear my mask, but I feel I really almost shouldn’t even do that. I have this confidence in myself. I’m not special, but I’ve got to tell you Matthew, while I don’t believe I’m that special, I just believe I’ve been lucky and I’m following the right course.

God’s been good to me. That’s what you need.

MKL: Absolutely!

End of Part 2. Next, in Part 3, Bob drops a pail-full of pearls and then paints you an irresistible offer.